Tanking: Warriors vs. Bears

[Vangelis]

Sorcha's outstanding article on druids put me in a mind to share Wind's and my conversation about the relative merits of Druid and Warrior tanks, after a month or so of friendly competition between us.

I take for granted that Danano has proven beyond any doubt that he can be an excellent main tank. The question is whether a druid can even be an even better tank than a warrior, to which, as a warrior, I must admit that the answer is often YES.

When I was completely prot-specced, Danano outdid me every time on the "damage taken" statistic, by a non-trivial margin. It *may* be that the shield-toting warrior has better damage mitigation than the bear, but my experience was that Danano simply out-aggroed me. The reason? The bear's area-of-effect aggro power, fully upgraded. It is true that a warrior has more and better aggro-gathering tools than the bear, but almost all of them affect only one opponent at a time. So while I always had one opponent stuck to me in our joint adventures, Danano inevitably had *all* the others stuck to him.

Our conclusion is that Warriors are better tanks against single enemies, but bears are better against groups.

The good news is that neither makes the other redundant. For those bosses that summon hordes of minions, put your warrior on the boss while the druid grabs the minions. Otherwise you'll mostly want the druid main-tanking and the warrior off-tanking (particularly against groups of casters).

All this of course assumes that the druid and the warrior know what they're doing. Tanking *skill* is still going to be the critical factor in a tank's effectiveness.

[Windfoot]

This has remained a pet theory between Van and me until now, but I am glad to have him put it up here.

I wish I had the statistics for the effectiveness of a druid's Demoralizing Roar when coupled with Feral Aggression.

vs.

A warrior's Demoralizing Shout, when coupled with Booming Voice and Improved Demoralizing Shout.

Instinctively, I would think the warrior would win out, but surprisingly, D'ana'no proved the stronger aggro pull over prot-specced Vangelis.

[Sorcha'Rei]

Not to disagree with anything that's been written, as it all looks right to me. But it did get me thinking about aggro-grabbing in tanking.

The basic tools for direct aggro-grabbing (as opposed to grabbing aggro as a side-effect of using some other skill) are:


Single Target Taunt

Druid: Growl.

Warrior: Taunt with Improved Taunt.

Improved Taunt wins, because it can be thrown more often.


AoE Taunt (Emergencies Only!)

Druid: Challenging Roar.

Warrior: Challenging Shout.

These are identical in effect, but the warrior still wins because his costs less Rage.


Of course, you can pull aggro in a variety of ways, such as making (as you suggest) Demoralizing noises, doing damage, dumping Faerie Fire on something, spamming Sunder, or by having general threat-increasing talents maxed out. (Defiance for a warrior and Feral Instinct for a druid.)

There are lots of places where what look like similar skills are actually quite different. One example of this is charging.

A warrior has to go into Battle Stance before charging and must be out of combat. His Charge not only requires no rage, it generates rage. However, he must then switch stances to be able to tank optimally after charging. The Improved Charge talent increases the amount of rage he gains. As I understand it, the maximum stun from Charge is 1 second.

A druid must be in (Dire) Bear to use Feral Charge, which can be used in or out of combat. It uses up Rage. It requires no switching after use, and is a good way to grab new enemies who have run across the room to beat on a healer in the middle of a battle. Its stun lasts 4 seconds. It can't be improved by talents, as it was already a talent to get it in the first place.

From the outside, these things look darned similar -- speedy racing to target to stun it -- but on the inside they are quite different.

[Vangelis]

The warrior actually has two different powers for speedy-move-plus-stun: One is 'charge', which generates rage but must be (a) in battle stance and (b) out of combat; the other is 'intercept', which costs rage but must be in berserker stance (and has a 3-second stun). Intercept is therefore the warrior's answer to Feral Charge, but the required stance-switch (and consequent rage loss if above 25%) makes it more cumbersome.

As far as I know, the direct aggro-grab powers that you mention do not actually generate threat, and are therefore useless outside of their actual duration. Therefore the bread-and-butter tanking powers are actual attacks like Revenge and Sunder, along with the AoE shouts. The cool thing about a warrior's Taunt is that it's totally free and has a fast recharge, so you normally use it to keep pulling aggro temporarily until you've hit it with enough Revenges and Sunders to make the enemy stick.

I have noticed that Danano tends to do more shouting than me; I normally shout only to apply or reapply the debuff. If the aggro from shouting is cumulative (even if the debuff is not), that would explain Danano's out-aggroing me in the group.

Of course this entire discussion would be moot if we just had access to the bloody documentation.

[Windfoot]

I think you have found something important that I overlooked, Sorcha. And that is that Feral Instinct ("Increases threat caused in Bear and Dire Bear Form by 15%") is vastly superior to Defiance ("Increases the threat generated by your attacks by 15% while in Defensive Stance"). Unless the wording is wrong, Feral Instinct would be cumulative to a druid's Demoralizing Roar, while Defiance would not improve a warrior's Demoralizing Shout. Also, it is easier to use, as per your "on the inside" comments. This would go a long way to explaining why feral druids are such magnets for aggro.

p.s. Yes, in combat I am perpetually roaring. I am not sure if it stacks, buy I have always assumed that it does. Even if it does not, the mobs are always being shouted at, and no one likes that

[Sorcha'Rei]

My point about the charges was that what looks the same may not actually *be* the same -- and the stance-swtiching you mention is hugely cumbersome. (As is having to shift to elf to drink a potion, which means that once Frenzied Regen is burned, I have nothing useful to offer in support of a healer trying to keep me alive. If I'm low-health, switching to elf while being beaten on isn't going to keep me alive!)

I believe you are correct that the taunts don't build threat -- what they do is to pull things off someone who's about to go down, buying you some time to build aggro. If I find myself having to use Challenging Roar, you can bet I follow it up with Demoralizing Roar and as many Swipes as I can get in while the CR effect holds.

After an AoE taunt is a time when it's great to have a paladin retribution aura, a warlock imp fire shield, and/or improved thorns on you, because the mobs will hit you for 6 seconds and all those things will hit them back, regardless of whether they are your target or not. In a hard battle with many mobs, I am frequently reduced to begging the paladin to switch auras. I usually fail, but on those rare occasions when I have all three damage shields up and running on a group of mobs, I LOVE seeing the little yellow numbers rise off them as they hit me and decide to hate me a little bit more because of how it hurts.

When I crazily tanked Baron with an unimproved Dire Bear (and green armor -- yeesh!), I was both pleasantly surprised at how much threat I could generate by roaring and growling, and dismayed by the lack of talent support. It was better than I expected, but for some reason, when I was in Dire Bear form, I expected to be able to do things like toss FF and charge. Which, of course, are things Sorcha can't do.

I think you are right, D'ana'no, about the difference between Defiance and Feral Instinct. I've suspected for awhile that this is one reason why bears tend to spam more noise than warriors -- the threat generation is actually higher for us when we roar.

[Caspin Mordain]

Other than abilities, I'd like to point out the major difference between Druid Tanks and Warrior tanks is basically Parry and Block.

A Druid receives a 380% Armor Bonus in Dire Bear form to all of his armor ( keep in mind, armor enchants / kits do NOT receive this 380% bonus ). I've seen Bear tanks exceed 11-12k Armor, given the right gear. A warrior will likely never exceed 9k, even with MC gear.

A warrior, though, has a shield, and has the ability to parry blows. I definitely agree that between the two, it does seem like a Druid has a better chance at grabbing significant threat on multiple mobs faster. My question is - if a warrior tab targets quickly, slamming a sunder on each individual target, would this counteract that deficiency? I've been doing this with Mandius while grouped with AE'ers ( Mostly Warlocks and Mages ), and I seem to be able to keep the threat relatively locked up by doing this. Granted, I'm level 22, so my knowledge is very limited.

Parry and Block ( especially block ) become enormously useful later on, but I'd say that at least for Tier 0 instances, a Bear Tank can tank equally as well as a warrior, and better in some situations.

But yeah, I agree with basically everything posted.

[Sorcha'Rei]

While I do enjoy making warriors who just completed their Valor sets turn green by telling them about my 10,729 armor in my (mostly blue with a few ZG purples) Dire Bear, I must confess that near as I can tell, increased armor has diminishing returns on damage mitigation after about 8000.

I have never played a warrior. I just like to engage in technical tanking talk with my favorite warriors. Near as I can tell, spamming Sunder is a great aggro-locking technique all the way to MC and beyond. (Of course, in MC, a tank is generally going to be locked onto one mob, so maybe "spamming" stops being the right word.)

[Kanammer]

With multiple creatures I try to..

(Start in Battle stance) "Demoralizing shout", "Thunder Clap", (Switch to Berserker Stance) ,"Piercing Howl", and "Whirlwind"

All the while using the other goodies such as Sunder, sweeping strikes etc... etc..

but then again, I'm still working on it.

[Windfoot]

sorcha said:

My point about the charges was that what looks the same may not actually *be* the same -- and the stance-swtiching you mention is hugely cumbersome.

For a druid tank, switching is more than cumbersome, its virtually out of the question. For a warrior, however, it does not look so bad (admittedly, from the "outside"). I particularly enjoy having Vangelis off-tanking as I have seen him switch modes at the drop of a disaster, which, is a *huge* strength of a warrior, and an essential team skill.

[Sorcha'Rei]

windfoot said:

For a druid tank, switching is more than cumbersome, its virtually out of the question. For a warrior, however, it does not look so bad (admittedly, from the "outside"). I particularly enjoy having Vangelis off-tanking as I have seen him switch modes at the drop of a disaster, which, is a *huge* strength of a warrior, and an essential team skill.

Well, one thing is for sure: a druid tank can't shift and remain a tank!

In feral solo'ing, I often do shifts: to heal, to drink a potion, to use my fire-breathing trinket. But most importantly, I shift from Cat to elf so I can get to Bear when I get adds. But when tanking, the goal, near as I can tell, is to go to Bear and stay there until the melee is over.

I do think that in a 5-man party with only one tank, a Warrior is a bit more versatile, because he can change stances without losing his armor or all his rage.

I'm pretty sure, based both on my experience as a tank and my experience as a healer, that tanking in a 5-man run is a lot harder than tanking in a raid. And here, as everywhere, skill trumps built-in capabilities every single time.

[Tantor]

Hey All,

Haven't posted in a while but here's my two cents on main tanking (which I've been doing full time Horde side for a while).

First, unless it's a single boss or one with set guards (The Baron, Drakk etc.) I always pull rather than charge. This makes it much easier to control the mobs and avoid unwanted adds. Also, in mixed groups of elites and non-elites, I focus on the elite mobs only. It's the job of my casters to drop the non-elites using AOE (with the priest ready to shield if they happen to crit alot)

As to how I generate hate and hold aggro, I've found the following skills the most useful.

1) Sunder Armor - once I have five on something it is very hard to yank the mob off me
2) Revenge - generates alot of hate
3) Shield Bash - mine is improved through the Prot tree and the silence also generates alot of hate
4) Shield Slam - 31 skill from Prot Tree, generates so much hate that its like a low powered Taunt
5) Thunderclap/Demo Shout - both are AOE and generate meduim hate

Taunt should only be used to pull a loose mob back onto you, as it draws the aggro but creates no actual hate (if taunt is down, remember Mocking Blow - switch to Battle Stance and use it)). Concussive Blow lets you stun a mob that breaks, giving you time to drop a couple of sunders on them as well. Challenging Shout is your safety valve, if things have gone bad it buys the rest of the party precious seconds of time.

A typical battle looks like this (I start in Def Stance - the extra threat from Defiance helps):

1) Pull and use Bloodrage
2) Hit Demo shout
3) Sunder my primary target - hitting Revenge whenever its up
4) if a mob breaks, Sunder then Taunt if you can (better chance they'll stick)) if not Taunt and focus on building hate anyway you can or they'll run again

I normally "stance dance" to gain acces to Thunderclap, Mocking Blow and Whirlwind Attack - most of the other skills build little hate.

An MT's job can be made much easier if the party focuses fire as well. Dropping one mob at a time makes its less likely the others will break off the warrior.

Armor, health, block and parry were all mentioned. Haven't done much comparison but I've found that an MT's best friend is +Def gear. Damage doesn't kill tanks (assuming the healer has mana and isn't being eaten by angry mobs); burst damage kills tanks (as in Crits, Mortal Strikes and the like from mobs). The higher you Def, the less like you'll get hit by a critical. I know that Danano has more armor than Tantor does, but Tant also has 390 Def Skill and I don't get hit by crits very often.

Which is better, a druid or a warrior? Depends on who is sitting at the keyboard.
Hope my ramblings were of some use.

Peace Out
Tant

[Montalban]

Further to Tant's comments, as I have watched him in action more times than I can count and am part of the same Horde 5-man "Dream Team" as he is, the + Def gear makes a HUGE difference. As a healer I have kept up tanks against elite mobs for much of my career and I have never seen a warrior who can stay up for so long against so many elites as Tant can. His health never has any sudden drops. It's more like watching a tire with a slow leak. You can relax, grab a coffee, throw him a rejuv, go out to the kitchen and make a sandwich, come back, throw him a regrowth, and so on.

Not so with other tanks I've healed for (no +DEF gear). There will be huge damage spikes and you're scrambling to keep up with the healing before they drop. Again, I'm talking about warriors here as I have never healed for a druid tank (since when there is a druid tank it is me), but when I tank my damage takes wild and exciting drops against people like the Baron (I have never had to tank Drakk *makes sign of the cross*).

The other thing I want to reiterate is that a tank is only as good as his/her team. I am lucky to be with a group who play and think like I do. We work together and naturally cover for each other, back each other up, and never quit on each other. And that, if anything, is the key to successful instancing.

[Windfoot]

montalban said:

The other thing I want to reiterate is that a tank is only as good as his/her team. I am lucky to be with a group who play and think like I do. We work together and naturally cover for each other, back each other up, and never quit on each other. And that, if anything, is the key to successful instancing.

AMEN.

[Tantor]

"The other thing I want to reiterate is that a tank is only as good as his/her team. I am lucky to be with a group who play and think like I do. We work together and naturally cover for each other, back each other up, and never quit on each other. And that, if anything, is the key to successful instancing." posted by Montolban

Yup, I've MTed for pick-up groups and have witnessed wipe after wipe because the team won't work together.
I'm luck to have a great group of 60's to work with.