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Post by Fechak on Aug 26, 2006 10:41:32 GMT -5
As all of us have noticed, the guild has changed over the course of the last few months. We've lost many members for many reasons, but perhaps most importantly in key leadership positions. The age of the game and other factors make rebuilding the guild a monumental task, and the leaders and long-term members that remain do not have the desire or the time to undertake this. The council, for some time, has been discussing options behind the scenes. Although there are a few paths to go down, the one that seems most suitable is a merger with another guild - Lunari Meridia specifically. I will stop here for just a moment and make absolutely clear that this is simply an idea we are putting out on the table, it is something that we will all decide on, not just a few of us. Celera and I met with Lunari's council to discuss this matter in detail as a preliminary "feel out" get together. We left the meeting feeling more positive toward this idea than anything. They are very serious about many things and wanted to make sure that, IF this were to happen, our members would be comfortable with the transition. Many of you know Lunari from our functions, very few of us know them very well. Here are some of the things they wanted to make clear to members trying to decide if this is a good idea or not. - They are a 'medium' RP guild. Of which I would compare us as 'heavy' as stated in the charter. Where we always keep /guild and /say IC, they may slip from time to time. Although instituting an /ooc channel might be a good idea, remember it would be us coming to them, not the other way around.
- They do raid from time to time, but do not focus on it. Their membership raids when they're all on and can all do it... there are no aspirations into turning into a raiding guild.
- They are family oriented as are we. Their council is made up of various members from two other guilds that they have also accepted. Both Fate and White Tower merged into Lunari in the recent past. I spoke with them at the meeting privately, and all the members have not regretted their decision.
I must admit, that Lunari knows of our aptitude in battle and character IC and are very anxious to invite all of us. (I don't blame them) So I've now put this out there and will open it up to full discussion. p.s. As far as these boards are concerned. No matter what happens, we merge, we move on, we live on, I want this place to be our anchor. I want this place to continue our community into whatever future we find ourselves. In a year another game might come along and some of us might get it, others may not. And on into infinity I suppose... but here can be where we all stay no matter what happens. I don't know about you, but I think that sounds pretty damn nice.
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Post by Emizael on Aug 26, 2006 16:00:54 GMT -5
I'm going where Fechak and Celera lead. Doesn't matter what guild tag we wear, I consider all of you in this guild, friends, and I fully support my friends. Even Valand!
So, merging isn't such a scary idea. More people, more opportunities, and we get to keep this site? Sweet! Hell, half of our adventures are here on the boards anyways!
Is there a schedule in mind for the transition? It seems to me, that the faster we rip the bandage off, the quicker we'll heal, yah?
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Post by Windfoot on Aug 26, 2006 16:19:48 GMT -5
Seems like a right idea to me to join with the Lunari. I recommended the alliance with them because they made such a good impression on me. I am sure they would make a good broader community .
As you all know my main interests has turned to writing, but it is also the case that the idea of showing up to solo grind Robb or Menshk to 60 holds little lustre for me (having already two 60s). Of course, I'm not in game much, so I may be out of touch with what it's like to be hanging out in the DoV tabbard. But the last few times I have show up online there weren't enough Defenders to make a team. If there were usually enough people hanging out on the comm to make a 5-man I might stick my head in more often. I imagine others would feel the same way.
My only reservation is losing the Defenders history on this forum, and the writing community we have built. It would be nice to hold onto that if we could. However, even if y'all shift to a new forum, Robb will keep writing his Tale. We might also consider working on the Defenders wiki to keep the lore intact...
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Post by Val on Aug 26, 2006 16:41:58 GMT -5
Fechak, undoubtedly know my feelings toward this, but you all know that before anything I will follow you and the council to the ends of the earth.
I do, however, agree completely with Windfoot's concern regarding the upholding of each player's unique character, as well as the immense amount of Lore that has been brought here.
I also, knowing that this would be an immense change, would find that the creative change from the Defenders to Lunari ((Being to those who use the Defender's Hall a considerable amount in their RP - Like myself)) to be a little daunting. But as you said, this is all a matter of "maybe" at this point.
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Post by Angoleth Isera'Duna on Aug 26, 2006 17:03:06 GMT -5
Alright - bear with me here for a minute as this post will have three parts.
Angoleth is fine with the idea really - she's a wanderer and the change of name won't really affect her much. She's only just arrived at the hall, and she understands the need to find a group with which to hunt.
Anna is not sure. As the writer of her RP, the Defenders hall plays a huge part of her character, and her room plays a big part in her stories as a place of retreat and study. She's also involved in something (not sure just exactly what yet) with Emizael and a tabard that would probably have to be laid aside until I could figure out what to do with the fact that she no longer wears the same tabard as the one that she found.
As a player, I like the Lunari's (An raids with Cionia on a regular basis), and I know that we've had trouble getting enough people of one level together to go out and do much. Part of me is very attached to being a Defender, and I do not want to lose the lore and all the story that happens on these boards. Keeping the boards alive is a very good start, but I guess part of me is skeptical that much will continue to happen here other than already established stories (and that new stories will go on Lunari boards), until it kind of just goes away.
I guess that's a long lot of fluff to say that I'm not sure what I think really, and that I dont feel strongly enough either way to put in a "vote". I will follow the decisions made by the guild, though.
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Post by Finney on Aug 26, 2006 18:37:49 GMT -5
I'm glad that this was brought up. I wasn't seriously considering moving to another guild, but I know that I'll be online at weird times in the coming months. Its difficult enough to find people at the usual times, but I would like to increase the likelihood of finding someone online when I need to or whatever.
I think I'll still be able to work it so that I can be on when you all are, but probably only on weekends. Otherwise I'll probably be playing at night like usual. So if I'm on at 9 pm China time that will be... 6 am AST I think. Ouch.
So I'm all for merging, as long as we don't lose each other and all that mushy stuff.
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Post by Celera on Aug 26, 2006 18:43:28 GMT -5
I appreciate the feedback from all of you, and the support of everyone. We talked about this a lot, over a period of -- well, most of the summer, really -- and at first I hated the idea. But I came to realize, as most of you have said in one way or another, the important thing is not the name "Defenders of Valor." Here is what I think is important: 1. I really like all of you. I think of many of you as friends as much as my friends from work or anywhere else. I don't want to lose touch with friends just because we are too small to offer the variety of options we used to -- and people get tired of the game and leave. Whether we are in one group or another, doesn't really matter. As an aside (and I've said this before) if you are tired of the game, or don't have time to play, don't feel you can't keep posting stuff here, in character or out. Or let us know where your myspace or blog is, if you want. We are "real" friends, even if we haven't met in person. Keep in touch. 2. We all joined an online game so we could play with others. That is a lot easier to do if there are more "others" to choose from. Of course, we all have friends in other guilds, and we can always meet a group of strangers and run an instance. I don't think any of you do more of that than I do, and it is fun in its way. But being part of a larger group will make it easier to do what we came to WOW to do. 3. The Lunari are a lot like us. They do rp -- if somewhat less strictly than we usually do. They play well, although many of them are less experienced than many Defenders. Most importantly, they are a group of honorable, fun, mature people. Read their guild charter -- www.lunari.guildportal.com -- and you'll see that it is very much like our own. I've done some runs with them as Celera, and joined their guild with a low level alt a few days ago (most of them don't know it's me and they are consistently pleasant, generous and fair. Just like us. Some good questions about the stories and the guild lore. Nobody wants that to go away. The plan is to keep this site with all the past, present and future stuff. I hadn't thought what to do about the guild hall in our stories -- so there are a few technical challenges. But hey, we are creative writers! The forum is at least as important to the identity of the defenders as our online play. Maybe more so. Finally, I agree with Emi that we don't want to drag this out. We want feedback, concerns, etc., and don't want you all to feel rushed. But when we have a consensus, I think we need to just do it -- whatever it turns out to be.
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Post by Kalmorith on Aug 26, 2006 21:13:29 GMT -5
Well, I know that I have not been around over the last few months, but I am sure some of you remember me.
I have slowly - very slowly - been coming back to the game, and have seen only a few guild members on at a time. So few of the orginals are hanging on. I suppose this is natural. A game can only hold one's imagination for so long before one might start looking elsewhere.
I have wondered how the guild would be able to sustain itself with few numbers. As we all know, running a Guild of four houses was hard even when nine people (Guildmaster plus the four House Lords and Wardens) were combining their efforts! And even then, there were many non-officer types making great efforts. It is a big job.
I suppose more than the actual "Defenders of Valor" title, is the people, both real and avatar. "Windfoot, Finney, Celera, Fechak, Caspin, Turi, Kasie, Maghda, Merlinne, Vangelis, Polrena, Andenia, Muzzler, Vezesara, Cordeliah, Quarmas...and yes, even Kalmorith"...these names all mean so much more than the single monicker "Defenders of Valor" do they not? (note: it has always bugged me that is was not "Defenders of Valour" but that is another issue...heh)
Though many of those names are gone, my point is that it is the people that bring us together. So, maybe moving on to a guild that brings the convenience of Guildchat and such to like-minded people is a good thing. If the weight of the guild is too much for those left standing, then they should set the weight down.
Certainly, this board is the hard work of thousands of hours of work and writing by a lot of people. I would not want to see it go. Perhaps, there can be a "Defenders of Valor" chapter to the newly adopted guild? Something that would allow us to still convene here? If it is a matter of money, I will play my part in keeping the forum running.
And so, though it might create a momentary sting in the heart, I would not oppose a plan to press the /quitguild key...
(Another note: I never liked the change to the white tabard, but was not present during the vote, so kept it to myself. Though I must admit the Kal has not been wearing it, as it draws attention from his salmon/rose/off red/pink shirt.)
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Post by Arlon on Aug 27, 2006 2:03:14 GMT -5
I agree with the consesus of the group. I will follow where the guild goes. As you all know, my writing talents aren't much and i really don't post in much of the guild rp. I do value all as true friends and want to stay together. I miss the nights of having 20 people on in the gchat and just bs'ing about cookies and ice cream.
Whether it be with the Lunari or another guild that comes along, i will be along for the ride. I know at one point I left the guild for a while because i wanted to see what end game raiding was all about. It was fun and I enjoyed my time with Hand of Havoc but I truly missed my friends. I am glad that i decided to come back to WOW. I left for a while as I was having lag issues so bad that i just couldn't play at all but I am very happy I decided to return and don't plan to go anywhere in the near future.
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Post by Celera on Aug 27, 2006 2:13:37 GMT -5
I hope we see Kal in his pink shirt (come on, it's pink, just be ok with it) and his big pink flamingo some time soon. And really, I think the white tabard is a much better contrast.
It will be a bit of a wrench. When I signed up an alt in the Lunari it was strange just seeing different names up there. But every new step in life has that aspect.
I don't know that we want to have a "chapter" within the new guild. And Kal -- I know this isn't what you meant, but I think it bears mentioning anyway -- anyone who joins the Lunari or any other guild needs to do that wholeheartedly. It's no good joining a new group and then only hanging out with other Defenders. We have a shared history that we take with us, but we would be taking it to someplace new. I know this won't really be a problem -- Kielon and Zavera and I were in a another guild before, Emi and Arlon and Arvaitha were in another guild before, and I'm sure there are others of you too. Those bonds from the past are there, but you can still move forward.
As far as the site, though, there are several of us who are committed to maintaining it as long as anybody is coming here at all. The fee is quite modest and I would be happy to pay it when it comes around again next spring or whenever it is. The Lunari have their own site -- and anyone who joins the Lunari or any other guild should visit and contribute to the guild's site, as you all have done here. But this can still remain as a separate effort -- a separate gathering place for old friends and any new ones we pick up along the way. Just like it has been for the last two years.
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Post by Sorcha'Rei on Aug 27, 2006 2:46:22 GMT -5
There are so rarely people on when I play Malka. It's okay for me as a player -- I can level her dandy solo if I have to. But she's such a social being, it's hard on her. This move would be great for her, even though medium RP is not a place I ever thought to go.
But I have to say this -- nothing you have said makes it sound like this is a merge. It sounds like an absorption. That's not a bad thing, but it's a different thing. A merge takes two old things and makes something new. Both the old things are gone. An absorption has one thing, well, absorb another. One of the old things continues on, changed by the event, but not gone. The other is gone.
For me, personally, an absorption is more of a loss. Not that I would not do it, but in a merge, something new is being built by people who have all given up something to build the new thing. In an absorption, one group of people gives up something they love in the hopes of finding a home in something that already exists. It can work out very very well, but we will lose everything except our shared history. What we will gain, we will have to build in the context of a history we did not share.
Finally, and on a personal note, I worry about Sorcha and Rheyna. They don't exist on Feathermoon anymore. They may come back someday, but for now the characters are elsewhere. But they are very alive here on these boards and in my heart. They have friends they love here. I cannot fathom how they can have a life on the Lunari boards if they are not able to be in the guild at all.
But I will follow where you go, and see what I see. As Sorcha pointed out earlier this evening, choose an action, choose its consequence. I don't like the consequences of not going with you all, so I'm in, and will support whatever the Council chooses to do.
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Post by Fechak on Aug 27, 2006 3:17:27 GMT -5
That is a good point Sorch - but I don't see how we could move into Lunari and not become something new. Although they are medium RP, what stops us from continuing to be heavy? How do we loose our history if we created it here and maintain it here? Let us not forget, Lunari will benefit greatly from our coming to them. The rich character of our guild will continue on and probably flourish with new blood and not to mention a fresh audience. I realize I'm only seeing the positive, perhaps that's ok though
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Post by Kalmorith on Aug 27, 2006 5:38:15 GMT -5
Sorcha says it exactly...we will be absorbed into the other guild. Of course, we would not act separately. And a Defender doesn't really act much differently than any other "good" guild, do they? We don't have some trademark battlecry or such that we use, or some ritual (well, we did have rituals), but for the most part, someone logs in to play and they either find guildmembers they can trust to play with, or they find no one on. Finding only one or four people logged on definately makes it hard to team up with guildies.
So, if the result of taking on a new name means logging in and finding ten people playing, and since we would eventually come to know these people, then that is not a bad thing, is it?
The only downside is the loss of operating under the DoV title and the very good reputation the guild has. I remember when people had "heard" of us. I am not sure if that is the case anymore. Do people know of this guild? I dunno. If the guild history remains here, then that is also a bonus.
Also, remember, the Defenders has, right now, only two Lords and one Warden when there should be four Lords and four Wardens. If Fechak, Celera, Kielon, and Vangelis are not able to bear the weight of maintaining the guild (and I don't blame them, that is why I stepped down) then it is a moot point, anyway...something must be done. If the DoV is no longer able to hold ceremonies and events due to numbers then something must give. If that means taking the good people who are currently active in the guild to join up with other good people under a different name, then I think you will find your playing experience will improve.
I am interested to know, what is your guess at the number of "active" (plays every week) members of DoV at this time? And how many do the Lunari have? Are we 15 people, and they 50?
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Post by Celera on Aug 27, 2006 10:01:15 GMT -5
Numbers -- Fech has more data about the official numbers -- but lately, 3 or 4 people online at once is typical. It is not unusual anymore to be the only one around. 8 is the most I've seen lately. The Lunari seem to usually have more than 10 (nearly 20 at times) at least on weeknights. Merger/Absorption -- Sorch, you have a point. The Lunari will still be the Lunari and the Defenders -- in the game anyway -- would be gone. The Lunari would change, as any guild would when they have an influx of new members. And we have been assured that at least one Defender would be on their Council, so that our opinions (to the extent we all have one opinion on anything would be heard on any decisions that come up. R/P -- Frankly, when there are only 2 or 3 people on, there isn't that much rp anyway. Lately we use the ooc channel a lot. The Lunari don't have an ooc channel -- but a lot of rp guilds don't have that. They are mostly IC in guild chat. My impression is that they welcome people who are more consistent and/or more creative with rp. They don't want an environment where people are pressured about it. I think most of us can live with that.
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Post by Fechak on Aug 27, 2006 10:04:33 GMT -5
If I would guess, DoV would be around 10 actually. I'm not 100% on Lunari honestly, the least I've seen on a /who was 5 in the early morning where during peak times there is a good 40 or so with a large level spread. I would attribute their size and age to us around last autumn.
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