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Post by Vangelis on Oct 2, 2005 2:24:50 GMT -5
As I approach the peak of my abilities I have some confidence in how to use my abilities in a group situation. Now I would like to know the abilities and limitations of the other classes. I'll kick off the thread by describing what I want my teammates to know about the warrior. Please respond with the things you want ME to know about your class!
Note that when I speak of the main and secondary "job", there are only five "jobs" in effective teamwork: tanking, healing, damage, runner control, and crowd control. The definitions:
Tank: holds enemy aggro, takes damage
Healing: heals damage on friends
Damage: inflicts damage on enemies
Runner Control: stops/kills fleeing enemies before they attract more
Crowd Control: freezes enemies, thereby reducing the number that have to be dealt with at one time (i.e. sheep, sap, banish)
The Warrior
Main Job: Tank
Secondary Job: "poor-man's" runner control ("hamstring" - affects current target only - plus possibly some specialized slow/stun abilities in the talent tree)
Notes:
1) In order to keep the attention of enemies, the tank will be switching targets often. Damage-dealers should NOT try to follow the tank's target, but to stay combined against the targets in priority order (i.e., casters first).
2) Holding aggro when first attacking a mob, and particularly if additional enemies arrive (an "add"), is the most difficult task for the tank. Aggro can be easily lost at that point to the healer, or to an overzealous (high-threat/area-effect) damage-dealer.
The solutions are:
(a) the tank coordinating with the healer to cast their heal-over-time spell before initiating battle;
(b) the damage-dealers giving the tank a few seconds to grab aggro before launching in, staying combined against their targets (in priority order - casters first!), and avoiding the high-threat attack techniques.
I have not yet found a straightforward solution to the problem of the "adds" going after the healer on the first big heal after they engage. I recently discovered that in an "add" situation you actually WANT the Paladin to spam his/her area-of-effect attack and grab the aggro. In the absence of a Paladin, the Warrior simply must do a Thunder Clap or two, and start switching targets to damage the new enemies - but given the chaos of an add, it's still going to be messy.
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Post by Kaillen Nevarre on Oct 3, 2005 1:49:21 GMT -5
This is largely based off of my own personal experiences, and as I tend to act as the "pinch hitter" for whatever group I'm in, there are many things to be listed. Paladins tend to be rather versatile in a number of areas - even with a total Retribution build as I've currently done. Therefore, I see the overall goal for a Paladin as determining where your abilities will be most useful to the current group skillset and fill the niche.
The Paladin
Main Job(s): Tanking, Damage (esp vs. Undead), Secondary Healer/Rezzer
Secondary Job(s): Buffing, Crowd/Runner control, "Peeler"
Notes:
1) All notes above pertaining to tanking apply for ANY tank, not just warriors. Especially when a Paladin finds themselves tanking - we suck at holding agro, and often need more "lead time" before the DPS machines charge in, otherwise we'll be spending all of our time (and mana) trying to pull mobs off of the party.
2) As Vangelis mentioned, Consecration can be very useful for crowd control. Runners may be handled 2-3 ways: a) a 3-5 second Stun, b) a Seal that prevents the mob from fleeing, or c) via Spiritual Hammer - a distance attack that is only available when the target hits 20% or less HP, but is VERY effective (at Rank 1, I've averaged around 320 with double that on a crit)
3) There are a number of "buffs" that can be applied to various team members. DPS types are probably best to ask for Blessing of Might, while casters may want Wisdom instead. If you are having agro problems as a Healer and/or Hunter, you should a) Follow the advice of Vangelis above re: timing, etc. and b) ask your pally for their Threat-reduction blessing.
4) Given the fact that the Paladin is usually helping peel mobs, it is VITAL that you NOT run all over the place when being attacked. It both makes it harder to peel and/or heal when someone is continually running out of range. If you stay put, we WILL heal you and/or get that slobbering thing off of you. Barring that, we'll rez you. Either way, you'll be fine.
5) When the tanks are dealing with a target and an add shows up or you manage to agro part of the group - bring them over to the Paladin. This enables them to stay on their current target and use their AoE more efficiently.
6) Healers - the tank and the Paladin should be tied for 1st priority in your healing. Yes, in a pinch the Paladin can heal themselves, but their mana is better conserved for either adding damage, refreshing buffs or helping heal others. This can be discussed on a group by group basis, but in general the above rule applies. Also, the Paladin can help "switch off" with healing so as to help distribute the agro more evenly and keep the healer from getting mobbed. This takes a little more practice and coordination, but with that and the threat reduction, your healer should be safe.
Any other more experienced Paladins, please feel free to contribute your input, as these are simply my own experiences through my 45th season.
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Post by valesta on Oct 25, 2005 10:11:15 GMT -5
I have appreciated the Academy greatly and have been thinking on the words of wisdom contained therein. I am getting better at wielding my magic, and have learned a few things about my class which may be of aid to others...I am very green though and welcome gladly any elaboration, refutation or other input on any and all of my thoughts here. Grab a snack, drink water, take a nap, it’s a long one…
The Mage:
The quickest class to die, BAR NONE. We are graced with mana shield, which mimics the priest's shield, except that it drains our mana to protect us which leaves us utterly defenseless. PLEASE keep the enemies away from your friendly mage! You will not be sorry. We are mighty damage dealers, I suggest that with the possible exception of the rogue, we can kill quicker than most, if we can survive the fight. This propensity for death brings me to the following points:
1. Sheep-
a. Yes, never, ever, ever hit the sheep when there are other targets attacking. There is no AoE or warrior stomp that will outdo the benefit of one less attacker, in my opinion.
b. More controversially, please DO NOT let the sheep come out naturally. While the healing and such is handy, the enemy detests being sheeped and will come at the mage with such focus as is rarely seen! Only the most skilled warrior can pull them off and I am even uncertain of that! I have died to many an angry target in the presence of able warriors.
2. Frost Nova-If your mage casts frost nova, please priests and range attackers, use that time to back away and let the warriors in. I have seen many a priest stand and take a beating, desperately calling on the warrior to save them while the target is immobilized so they might save themselves! It is a challenge for a priest to look to their own welfare, I know, as they are so focused on the lives of others, but a dead priest is the greatest tragedy a party can suffer.
3. AoE- it is agreed by all, AoE makes the mage (or warlock....or paladin??) the prime target for everyone! On the rare occasion that it is determined useful, the priest must focus on the mage and there is no shame in Flash Heal! We die in moments where the warrior or paladin can weather more beating. We have no pets, no minions to aid us...Only our party members. Please don't overlook us.
4. Pulling- True the best puller is the hunter with their long range and stun, slow, etc. abilities. I suggest, with uncertainty, that the mage is the next best puller (standing close very, very close to the warrior).
a. Our fireballs have a range that exceeds the warrior’s bullet and do upward of 250 damage at my level (and I am an arcane mage).
b. Our sheep incapacitate a target while drawing the others to the party and still keeping sheep out of frost nova and AoE range so that these abilities can still be used without unsheeping.
c. Our frost bolt slows the target so that more damage can be done by the time he reaches us. I have been chastised many times for using this strategy but I maintain that it is a sound one as long as the warrior is there to immediately pull the target off. I can frost nova on their arrival and quickly back away…Think about it and let me know…
5. Runners- Mages have an instant spell called Fire Blast that can take out most runners (usually dealing over 150 damage at once…at my level), even the early ones. Mages should consider using this ability early, then saving it for the runner. This is safer than a pet or party member chasing the runner into mobs. Discuss this strategy if you are traveling with a mage.
6. Running- I will try very, very hard not to run away when being attacked so that warriors and such can pull aggro, but if I run toward you, please consider that I am running to you for help, not for the exercise, and not to mess up your plans. “Get them off me! Get them off me!” I have seen many a perplexed party member watch me run into them without pulling aggro, chastising me for “running”. Admonish me for running AWAY. If I run TOWARD you I’m bringing “friends”, to save you the chase. I’m trying to scrape them off onto you!
7. Aggro and the priest- Since the priest and the mage stand behind together, the mage is often the first line of defense for the priest and actually has a few agro-drawing spells to accomplish this (Fire Blast and Arcane Missile), especially if the priest Fades (many priests forget to use this invaluable talent!). But we won’t last long, so priests, please keep an eye on us, your humble defenders, and warriors please run over and take them off if you can.
I also suggest (and please comment) that sheeping the attacker might be a good strategy in desperation even if there is already a sheep out there. There are two downsides to this. First, sheep heal very quickly so any damage that was done to the attacker will heal. Second, the original sheep that unsheeps (you can only have one at a time) will come right for the mage (see point 1). The priest can cast shield on the mage to buy them some time. Please do! I know of mages who have used this to great effect, but it involves focused coordination.
Anyone still awake? Still here? That’s what I’ve learned thus far of the mage. Please don’t hold back. I welcome all input and ideas!
In service and appreciation,
Valesta
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Post by Caspin Mordain on Dec 3, 2005 2:25:34 GMT -5
Since this is the Academy, and I've been playing WoW since Launch ( And in Beta ), I'm just going to present some counterpoints to a few of the ideals that were set down here that I don't necessarily agree with. This is not an attempt to attack, but merely a way in which to better those who read these boards so that they might not only understand their class better, but others.
No argument. As long as the mage is sheeping responsibly ( i.e. sheeping pre-emptively, not right as the warrior is thunderclapping ), this is a good rule of thumb.
The threat level towards the mage as the result of a polymorph being broken naturally is the exact same as if it were broken intentionally. This is a myth.
Absolutely. However, if a mage does see a mob charging at the priest, an attempt at a pre-emptive Frost Nova can be wise ( or the polymorph as you suggested further down ). By pre-emptive, I mean charging AT the mob and Nova'ing before it reaches the priest.
Keep in mind that in some situations, it becomes nearly impossible for the Priest to keep a mage who is AEing up. Shield has a 15 second window of ununsability after it drops ( this is WITH talents, which many leveling priests will not have invested in - otherwise it will be 30) and spamming Flash Heal - which is the only way to keep an AE Mage up, is sometimes not enough. If you do die, its not necessarily the Priest's fault.
This is my primary issue with this entire post. This is wrong. 'No' Mage should EVER pull, and if you are asked to, you need to look your main tank right in the face and call them absolutely insane. A mage's primary job is to DPS and maintain low threat levels, and act as a support in situations with multiple adds. You are not a puller. You wear cloth.
The order of pullers is as follows:
1. ) Hunters - extended range with the Hawk Eye talent makes the Hunter class, combined with traps and Aspect of the Cheetah / Pack the undeniable best puller in the game.
2. ) Warrior / Rogue - The Warrior pulling gives him the immediate benefit of early aggro, rather than fighting someone else over it. Lacking that, the Rogue can sap a mob ( given that they are humanoids ) and sprint back to the group and vanish, thereby negating all aggro.
3. ) Druid - Moonfire -- > Shift into Bear Form.
4. ) Warlock - Curse of Exhaustion / Curse of Shadows / Any Curse : There is limited threat on curses, thereby making it significantly easier for your tank to gain aggro.
Honestly though, no cloth wearer should 'ever' be pulling. Ever.
If a mage is being forced to deal with runners, your group is sorely doing its job. One of four things 'should' be happening.
1 ) A rogue should be using Crippling Poison.
2 ) A Warrior should be hamstringing.
3 ) A Paladin should be using Judgement of Justice.
4 ) A Warlock should be using Curse of Recklessness.
Failing that, I recommend casting Frostbolt for the snare, over trying to fire blast the mob to death, which if you don't score a good hit, will end up failing you. Elite mobs tend to have more health than one wants to give them credit for.
From a melee point of view, a cloth wearer running around with a mob on them ( whatever direction ) tends to be more harm than good. There is approximately .5 - 1 seconds of what I call 'movement delay' on everyone's screen. Meaning that when you move on YOUR screen, it takes been .5 to 1 seconds for my screen to register that movement. I've tested this even at my personal network at home, and it's very true.
If you're standing away from the initial onslaught and you gain aggro with a mob, your tank SHOULD see it. If he's prudent, he will move back, extract the mob from you, and pull back to his normal spot. If you move into the middle of the foray, it oftentimes makes targetting difficult and will end up resulting in more damage. Also, if the mobs he is dealing with use the cleave ability, you may end up even taking additional damage.
Ok. Scenario:
1 ) Tank engages mob.
2 ) Priest gets aggro.
3 ) Mage wonders what to do?
Solution A:
If the Priest fades and retains aggro - If you begin peeling it off with high threat spells, you will cause the tank more grief by forcing him to run around and chase the mob. Thus, the priest spends more time healing you, gains more hate - now his fade's down and probably his shield timer is still running, and he's dead.
Solution B:
Priest fades. Priest keeps aggro. Frost Nova. Back away. If Frost Nova resists, polymorph. If Polymorph is not a possibility for whatever reason, you have two options.
1 ) If its a magic damage dealing mob, pop Dampen Magic on your Priest.
2 ) Fire a frostbolt at the mob, and instruct your priest to begin running around until his/her fade timer comes back up. This way, the mob is snared so that the warrior can catch up to it, and its snared so that the Priest isn't getting wailed on.
I may have taken you a little too literally on this statement, Valesta - I do hope you don't take offense, because none was intended. My experience with the mage class is rather extensive mostly due to the fact that I coordinated almost all Crowd Control / DPS for the entirety of Molten Core planning, through Ragnaros and beyond. I've seen a 'lot' of what Mages bring to the table, and I think you've gotten to see a lot of that too. I hope many more mages can read the advice you've posted here combined with some of my counterpoints and come to some good understandings of what will be expected of them.
Respectfully,
Caspin
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Post by merlinne on Dec 4, 2005 13:00:03 GMT -5
As a mage I'm just going to offer one thing here. If you are dying consistently over and over and over, examine your own tactics. It is not just the responisibility of your party to keep you alive. It is also YOUR responisibility to manage your threat.
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Post by Windfoot on Dec 4, 2005 14:22:17 GMT -5
I imagine managing your threat if VERY hard for a mage. What is your formula, Merlinne?
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Post by merlinne on Dec 4, 2005 23:58:59 GMT -5
One must always wait until the tank has full attention of the target before casting anything. Say, start at about 90%. The advantage I have as well is that I am an Arcane mage and my primary attack spell is Arcane Missiles. 156 damage per second for 5 seconds (without modifiers). By using the Arcane as my primary damage deal I take full advantage of the talent that reduces the threat generated by Arcane based damage spells. While I can't confirm it, it seems to me that you also draw less threat to yourself if you spread your damage out over time rather than hit with the big guns. For example, I seldom use Fireball. It does huge damage in one shot but tends to draw the attention of the target causing it to jump off the tank and onto the caster. By using my Arcane Missiles I'm still doing consistent dps throughout the entire fight, yet each strike is smaller and gives a brief pause in between them for the tank to hold onto the threat. It is doubly important as well that if you do attract the attention of the target, stop casting. Period. Do nothing. By doing this you are letting the tank reclaim the threat at a faster rate than if he's having to fight over the threat you are generating. And whatever you do, don't move. There are certain spells that draw immediate and immense threat as well. Counterspell is the worst I have encountered. This spell will almost always draw the target onto the mage. If you are going to be using Counterspell in combat, make sure your tank knows in advance of the adventure, instance, whatever that you will be using it and be sure they know that it draws huge threat. Counterspell, at the full number of talent points, silences a caster for a period of 10 seconds. They really hate that. Now the tactics may be different for the different Talent trees, but this is how I work as a nearly pure Arcane mage. It does help if you have a very skilled warrior to stand between you and the target who knows the best things a warrior can do to keep his cloth-wearing partner alive. Fortunately Kanammer and I make a good combat team.  |
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Post by Vangelis on Dec 5, 2005 0:12:30 GMT -5
I really have enjoyed reading this discussion of mages. However may I humbly suggest that the discussion generated by Valesta's post be moved into a thread of its own, similar to my "Warrior's Way" thread (is that even possible?). My intention in starting this thread was to have ideally just one summary per class.
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Post by Windfoot on Dec 5, 2005 14:10:54 GMT -5
It's not possible to move individual posts. Unless each person cuts and pastes their comments in sequence, we're stuck with the chat here.
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Post by Kanammer on Dec 5, 2005 15:43:18 GMT -5
A suggestion to go along with Merlinne's post. Merlinne and I are able to work very efficently together because we are communicating verbally in the same room. That way I know when she has an "add" on her on she gains agrro from one of the multiple creatures that I am trying to tank. That being said, here is my suggestion ... Priests / Warlocks / Mages ( anyone who does not need to have something beating on them) Set up a macro hotkey something along the lines of ----------- /party **your name here** is being attacked. Please assist. /party **your name here** is being attacked. Please assist. /party **your name here** is being attacked. Please assist. ----------- Yes it is intentional that you will be speaking in 3rd person and Yes it spams the group and for good reason. As a tank, my camera is pulled out ( usually max distance ) for multiple reasons. 1) So I can see how many creatures I have on me and be able to target them as needed 2) So I can see if any more are going to wander in too close and join the fight 3) So I can TRY to keep an eye on other party members during the fight IF I am able ( circumstances vary from fight to fight) Now the reason for the group spam is simple. If I am having to watch multiple targets, my simpleton brain can only take in so much visual data at once. Therefore I am not always able to pay direct attention to the health bars due to trying to make sure I keep all the targets attention the best that I can. Not to mention some people have multiple chats that they are in. Even though they may be color-coded, sometimes paying attention to the chat can be difficult and seeing an eye grabbing spam of "**SoandSo** is being attacked. Please assist" "**SoandSo** is being attacked. Please assist" "**SoandSo** is being attacked. Please assist" Will help ensure that the tank tries to help out to the best of his/her ability. The same goes for a polymorph macro. Do it at least 3 times because there are just some times when that "Over helpful" person will not be on the primary target. Speaking of Primary Target, my suggestion for the tank and party members also... Puller and Tanks - Make an "Incoming" or "Primary Target" macro (ie... /party Incomming ** %t ** . This will be your Primary Target ) Party members - Make an "assist" macro to make sure you assist the puller and only to assist for the target to ensure you have the correct target ( ie... /assist <puller name here> ). The person you are assisting can be changed easily for each group you are in. That's just my 2 coppers worth, from experience with Everquest and World of Warcraft. Any thoughts are welcomed. |
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Post by Rheyna on Dec 15, 2005 19:23:51 GMT -5
Valesta said: Doc Caspin replied: Doc Caspin is right, but he doesn't go far enough. Sometimes I let the AoE'ing mage die on purpose. Now before you go getting outraged about that, let me explain why I might do that. It isn't because I don't like mages, or don't appreciate the damage they are doing. It's because my job is to see that the entire party survives this battle and is able to move onto the next one. Sometimes, purposely letting someone die is the only way to do that. As a healer who possesses unlimited out-of-combat rezzes, my healing priorities are: - Healers -- have to keep these people alive. Now if the fight is going well, even though these are the first priority targets, they may not need any heals at all.
- Main tank -- this is the key to the fight. He's absorbing a lot of damage and holding aggro off the rest of you. He needs to stay alive.
- Main assist -- lots of smaller parties don't use one, but if there is a main assist who is a different peerson than the main tank, he needs to stay alive. In such a situation, if the MA goes down, the DPS usually melts into chaos and a wipe ensues.
- Other people -- and in a hard fight, I'm just not going to get to you.
The sad truth is that if I am trying to heal an AoE mage and the main boss suddenly crits the main tank twice in a row, I'm going to decide to let the mage die so I can save the tank. I have to do that if I want to do my job of keeping the party going. I hate doing it. I promise to rezz you after it's over, but I still hate doing it. Nevertheless, I will, if in my view, your death will save us from a wipe. (Heck, since my death will spam a party heal followed by a heal-over-time on all living party members, if the fight is nearly over, I'm out of mana, I believe that the death-heals will be enough to get the fighters through the fight, and there is another rezzer in the party, I sometimes let myself die in order to save us from a wipe.) I like to think I am a pretty good healer. I've solo-healed 14 Baron raids so far and not had a single wipe. In addition, I've been part of a two-person healing team on many more runs in that place. (I wish to high heavens that sucker would STAY dead after we kill him, but no. Sure as anything, within hours after a victory over him, I hear that he's alive again. Makes reclaiming Stratholme very tough indeed.) Mage AoE is used at least three times in that instance, and possibly more. For two of the usual places, I am quite sure I can keep you alive. As soon as the fight starts, I will bubble you and start chain healing you. Chances are you will survive nicely. The third place is in the Baron fight. You'll be spamming AoE to keep the skeleton adds off the healers, and the healers will repay you by slapping a bubble on you and then ignoring you. We have to. Baron hits hard enough that two crits can kill the main tank. Once you are bubbled, my job becomes quite simple: chain heal the main tank so he can hold the aggro and let the other DPS folks take down the Baron. Like Valesta, I think that priests who ignore AoE'ing mages are not doing their jobs. Alas, "not ignoring" doesn't always mean healing you. Sometimes it means knowing that I am losing you, but not being able to make any other choice. Edited because it's rude to misspell Doc's name. |
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Post by Kanammer on Dec 16, 2005 9:57:30 GMT -5
Rheyna, I look forward to having you in a group. I belive Lady Polrena acts in much the same way on making those difficult decisions.... and that is the type of healer's that I love to be in a group with. I come from a line of warriors the believes in taking a dirt nap if it means the group and/or healer survive, so I can relate somewhat to those types of decissions.
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Post by Caspin Mordain on Dec 16, 2005 13:42:15 GMT -5
I totally agree with everything Rheyna said. Good to see we have another priest with a good head on her shoulders. ;D
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Post by merlinne on Dec 20, 2005 10:22:12 GMT -5
As a mage (and having been a primary healer in EQ) I completely understand that sacrifices must be made on occasion. There is only so much a healer can do and the priority MUST be the tanks. Because mages draw so much agro and die so quickly I understand that I'm low on the healing totem pole. And I'm good with that. I just caution any mages that might travel to Blackrock with D'ana'no. Be wary of questions like "Hey Merlinne, wanna go pick up a quest for us?"  |
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